Curse

Spoony · Apr 06, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

If u want to do psy distraction, im more after ur mesmer build than this one.

Siren · Apr 06, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

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Originally Posted by swordfisher

I can't quite stop arguing it, though. While Guardian and Aegis will certainly prevent me from hitting, Guardian and (especially) Aegis are long casts which are vulnerable to interrupt. But more fundamentally, the fact that there is a monk spending 5-7 energy a pop to Guardian against me means that I've drawn hate away from the very threatening warriors on my team. By forcing the enemy to counter what is essentially a caster build with melee hate, I've futher strained their entire anti-melee capability, while bringing more to the table than the usual 'hit things hard' function of a melee fighter.

Requiring one of the opposing Monks to cast one 5-energy, 1-second cast, 2-second recharge Prot spell (Guardian) is not drawing anything away from anything. Guardian is almost spammable. Hell, in most cases, it is spammable. You're not straining anything.

Guardian only takes 1 second to cast. That's barely vulnerable to interrupt. I've done it before, but it requires a solid interrupt character to watch for it.

You're greatly overestimating how much pressure you can put on "Monk resources." They can counter you with something that costs 5 energy, casts in 1 second, and recharges in 2 seconds. For all the laborious preparation time required for your build, and the overly bizarre execution of it, and the fact that you'd probably have zero energy going in...being countered by a 5-energy Guardian is...bad. It's very bad in fact, and I think it's indicative of how weak the build is.

SparhawkJC · Apr 06, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

I think that while this build is interesting, its purpose is better performed by hammer wielders and actual mesmers.

Spoony · Apr 06, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Hell yeah, takes practice to interrupt a guardian spell just like that. Ever tried interupting prot spirit ?

MSecorsky · Apr 06, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

One thing I noticed... you only disable a skill if you catch them using it. If you use it when they're not using a skill, you're down 10e/8 secs and you haven't disabled anything. You catch someone in a period of time when they're not using skills it blows your rythym out of the water.

DieInBasra · Apr 07, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Siren, you really missed the point in your last paragraph. He's not out there to do damage attacking, he's out there to force enemy monks to drop a guardian on someone who isn't really getting hurt, to force their eles to drop a blinding flash on someone who can still function blinded, to force their warriors to get that assasin out of their backline when he can just teleport away as they come for him. And if you don't think that the monk useing something that costs 5-7 energy and achieves nothing is bad, then...um...you're wrong.

I really like this build. It's pretty creative. However, makeing it for 8v8 is tricky, because you need to be very specific about the build and it's purpose on a larger scale. You can't just take a build into a GvG senerio, good as it is, without any information as to what the other 7 characters are.
Like, what would this replace in the standard dual surge build? Too many warriors and you run into problems with AoE snares, wards, traps, and AoE hexes, just keeping them clean. Too few and it's turned into a VoD game, or a spike.
What would you consider running this with, and do you really think it's better then other disruption options(aka denial/hex spam)?

To me this guy needs the ability to assist a spike, or the build needs to be a pressure-spike sort of thing like ScV did. I really couldn't consider useing more then 2 melee characters, and if one is purely disruptive, then the build couldn't be pure pressure.

Siren · Apr 07, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

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Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Siren, you really missed the point in your last paragraph.

No, I didn't, for the reasons I've stated below.

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He's not out there to do damage attacking,

Nowhere in my previous post did I ever imply I believed the build to do damage.

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he's out there to force enemy monks to drop a guardian on someone who isn't really getting hurt

And this is a solid strategy how? A Monk casted a spammable 5E spell on his target. 5 energy. 5 second duration. 2 second recharge. Whooptee-freakin-doo. That Monk wasn't the one forced to do anything. In fact, the Monk screwed over his entire build.

That Monk spent 5 energy to make his investment of roughly 60 energy (and if we add losing 2 pips of regen to that, it probably hits 75-80)...completely and utterly useless.

Who got the better deal out of that? The Monk.

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to force their eles to drop a blinding flash on someone who can still function blinded

Think about this for a second. His character CANNOT function while blinded. Do you see any anti-evasion skills in his build? No. You don't. This is a build that depletes nearly all of his energy before he even gets in range. He needs that energy for an interrupt that disables all of his own skills. And he can only get that energy by hitting his target.

Blinding Flash being ineffective against this character? A character who cut his natural regen in half, and depends on hitting his target to supplement the lost regen? The Ele just screwed over his entire build. 15E used to negate a build of roughly 75E. Winner here: the Ele.

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to force their warriors to get that assasin out of their backline when he can just teleport away as they come for him.

The Warriors won't give two shits about him because he's not causing enough damage, doing minimal and barely effective interrupts (Using an Elite from his secondary profession? What the hell is that?) due to piss-poor e-management, and on top of all of this...he's admitted his reflexes suck for interrupts? I think I just suffered an aneurysm. lol

Why, then, if someone knows their interrupt reflexes suck, would they even consider wasting their Elite slot on an interrupt from their secondary profession that's going to disable all of their skills and drain their entire energy reserves after three uses? It makes zero sense regardless of how one tries to rationalize it.

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And if you don't think that the monk useing something that costs 5-7 energy and achieves nothing is bad, then...um...you're wrong.

Um, I'm actually right here, for the reasons I've stated above. He depends on energy. Guardian will castrate his e-management. Blinding Flash will castrate his e-management. And Warriors won't care about him at all. He can Recall all he wants after getting Blinded. That's just one less character that will be doing anything helpful on the battlefield.

NatalieD · Apr 07, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

(Using an Elite from his secondary profession? What the hell is that?)

I'm not even gonna bother with the rest of your nonsense, but this one really mystified me. What's wrong with using a secondary-profession elite? I mean, I can imagine all sorts of specific cases where it wouldn't work out well, but as a general rule?

Siren · Apr 07, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

I'm not even gonna bother with the rest of your nonsense, but this one really mystified me. What's wrong with using a secondary-profession elite? I mean, I can imagine all sorts of specific cases where it wouldn't work out well, but as a general rule?

For this particular build, Natalie? There are much more efficient uses of the Elite slot. That's obvious to anyone I should hope.

DieInBasra · Apr 07, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

I'm sorry, but I read up to the part where you talked about monks having 60 to 80 energy and then realised I'd have to explain guild wars to you.

The one that mystified me was

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Why, then, if someone knows their interrupt reflexes suck, would they even consider wasting their Elite slot on an interrupt from their secondary profession that's going to disable all of their skills and drain their entire energy reserves after three uses? It makes zero sense regardless of how one tries to rationalize it.

This build was meant for the good interrupters. That's obvious to anyone I should hope. But almost like you're saying that the build sucks because he's a bad interupter. Oh wait...you are.

Siren · Apr 08, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

I'm sorry, but I read up to the part where you talked about monks having 60 to 80 energy and then realised I'd have to explain guild wars to you.

Oh, you mean the following?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

That Monk spent 5 energy to make his investment of roughly 60 energy (and if we add losing 2 pips of regen to that, it probably hits 75-80)...completely and utterly useless.

Who got the better deal out of that? The Monk.

Think about who is making an investment of 60-80 energy with a build like the one swordfisher posted. If you want to say my post was implying that Monks have 80 energy, then you are not reading my posts with basic comprehension. I'll simplify it:

The Monk is only wasting resources if his resource consumption is greater than the resource consumption of the "Psychic Assassin" build.

As it stands now, however, the Monk only needs to spend 5 energy to counter the entire Psychic Assassin build.

Compare that 5 energy (the Monk resources required to counter the build) to the energy required to get the Psychic Assassin build up and running, including the loss of two pips of energy regen:

The player running Psychic Assassin spends an initial 15-30E just to prep for the build. If he activates Recall, he's completely empty on energy, and also down by one pip. If he's using Zealous daggers, that's another pip of regen gone. Total E loss: 30E+2E per 3 seconds

Now let's consider how long this combination would normally go for. I believe the estimate has been roughly 12-15 seconds.

In the span of 12 seconds, the player would normally have regained 8E (12 divided by 3, multiplied by 2).

In the span of 15 seconds, the energy regained becomes 10E (15 divided by 3, multiplied by 2).

Total E loss from losing two pips of energy regen: 8-10E

The Interrupt skill itself, Psychic Distraction, costs 10E a pop. Since the player would need to spam the thing to be mildly effective, that's another 30E right there. Total E loss: 30E.

Add up the two 30s there and you get what? An investment of 60 Energy, excluding the loss of two pips of energy regen (one from maintaining Recall, and the second because he needs Zealous daggers).

If we add the lost energy regen to that? The total investment runs from 68E to 70E.

Monk counters Psychic Assassin with Guardian. Guardian costs 5 energy. Psychic Assassin costs upwards of 70E.

The Monk makes out like a bandit in that trade-off.

Monk wastes resources? No.

Psychic Assassin wastes resources.

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The one that mystified me was

This build was meant for the good interrupters. That's obvious to anyone I should hope. But almost like you're saying that the build sucks because he's a bad interupter. Oh wait...you are.

And herein lies a critical flaw with the build: no good interrupter would dare use it. You'd get more mileage out of a Choking Gas Ranger, or a Temple Strike/Exhausting Failure Assassin. Or hell, even an E/Me running Psychic Distraction...because they've got the energy reserves to do it.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be an a-hole here. swordfisher knows that I have nothing against him personally. He's created some fantastic-looking Assassin builds recently (Appointment in Damascus for example), but Psychic Assassin is just not one of them.

DieInBasra · Apr 08, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Recall is of course being cast at the starting gate, so leave that out of your calculations in the begining. He doesn't have zealous daggers on while he's not attacking either. But nice try.

The assassin needs to be hindered or esle he's going to be pissing someone off. The monk has to guardian useing it on the person the assassin is attacking vs someone getting raged in the face by a axe warrior. The assasin then presses "tab", and then "space" and continues on his merry way. The assasin doesn't care who he's attacking because he can be auto attacking and still interupting someone esle, unlike a Choking Gas or TS/EF assassin, so guardian doesn't even effect him. If he's blind he drops back and switches out of Zealous while interupting at discretion, so the blind doesn't do much and his monks don't have to remove it.

You completely overesimate Temple Strike outside of random arena. Draw condition WILL be run by everyone and thier mothers, so the dazed won't be as awesome as it was when you were rocking Mo/E's in the random arena. You speak of this guy getting destroyed by gaurdian when his interrupts go through it and he can switch targets at will, and then name one example that will get destroyed by it, and then another that get destoyed Draw Conditions and can only interupt every 12 seconds.

Yeah, I misunderstood you with the energy, but you still don't make sense.

Siren · Apr 08, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

You speak of this guy getting destroyed by gaurdian when his interrupts go through it and he can switch targets at will

What are you trying to get at here? His build does get destroyed by Guardian, because he needs energy for Psy.Dis. And he can only get energy by connecting with attacks.

He can't use a 10E spell when he can't connect through Guardian.

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Yeah, I misunderstood you with the energy, but you still don't make sense.

I spelled it out for you. It makes perfect sense. People here are talking about Monks wasting resources on countering his build, but what people don't realize is that the Monk is only wasting resources if the build he's countering uses less energy, less time, less set-up, etc., than the Monk's counter.

And look at how the energy consumption (i.e., the resource consumption) of both builds breaks down:

Psychic Assassin uses 70E.

Monk counters with 5E.

I'm proving my argument through high-school level math (hell, you'd probably find this comparison crap in middle school). Who is using more resources there? Who is using their energy more efficiently? Who is wasting resources? It sure as hell isn't the Monk.

Oh, you mean the Monk used Guardian to counter a target that didn't pose a threat? So that's why the Monk is wasting resources? He's using 5E to shutdown a character. That's not much of a waste.

And I'd love for the Psychic Assassin to have to switch targets. It just means he's not having any energy coming back in while he's finding a new target and getting in range, which further castrates his interrupt potential.

DieInBasra · Apr 08, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

TAB SPACE. He doesn't give a shit who is new target is, so all he has to do is hit two buttons. Or, if not that, the closest target button and space. It's not like it'll take more then two seconds to make it there, and he's already going 15% faster. The monk is WASTEING a guardian on someone who less then a second later won't be attacked anymore.
And I already explained to you, the assasin doesn't use as much energy as you're trying to make out he does. It takes him 15e to prepare while maintaining ONE enchantment. The 15e for recall was at the begining,so his energy pool is full by the time you meet the enemy so you don't count that, nor do you count the loss from zealous daggers while not attacking. The energy loss from Recall is worth the ability to return to your backline instantly. But really, As well as that, you're not spamming the skill, you're interupting key skills.
This example is retarded anyway, a gaurdian has never stopped a warrior from training his adren, it won't stop an assassin from gaining energy. The only way you can hinder the assassin is by not hindering the axe anyway, which is a fair trade because the assassin can still work from range while the axe can't.

Siren · Apr 08, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

TAB SPACE. He doesn't give a shit who is new target is, so all he has to do is hit two buttons. Or, if not that, the closest target button and space. It's not like it'll take more then two seconds to make it there, and he's already going 15% faster. The monk is WASTEING a guardian on someone who less then a second later won't be attacked anymore.

Yes, because Tab+Space always works to find a new target and the A.I. path-finding always performs promptly and accurately, especially in the middle of the battlefield.

Or hitting C+Space? What makes you think the casters will be grouped together enough for that to work?

Even those two seconds will be critical in a build of this nature, because those are two extra seconds (on top of roughly 15 seconds of reduced regen) he's not getting energy back.

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And I already explained to you, the assasin doesn't use as much energy as you're trying to make out he does. It takes him 15e to prepare while maintaining ONE enchantment. The 15e for recall was at the begining,so his energy pool is full by the time you meet the enemy so you don't count that, nor do you count the loss from zealous daggers while not attacking. The energy loss from Recall is worth the ability to return to your backline instantly.

Read swordfisher's posts before you go replying, please. He's burning 15-30E initially. Hex Breaker, Siphon, Critical Eye and Recall. Add that up, and you get 30E. 30E is just about his entire energy reserves.

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But really, As well as that, you're not spamming the skill, you're interupting key skills.

Again, read swordfisher's posts (and read the description for Psy.Dis) before you go replying. He is going to be spamming Psy.Dis, to minimize on the amount of time his other skills are disabled. Interrupting key skills with this build? Absolutely not. It's a spam. If you don't believe me, read swordfisher's posts and think about what needs to happen in a build of this nature.

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This example is retarded anyway, a gaurdian has never stopped a warrior from training his adren, it won't stop an assassin from gaining energy. The only way you can hinder the assassin is by not hindering the axe anyway, which is a fair trade because the assassin can still work from range while the axe can't.

Retarded? Hardly. Block enchants are one of a Warrior's worst nightmares. It's why debuffs are so important to support melee fighters. Hell, if you want a really fast and easy example, activate Bonetti's and see how many times Griffons can hit you, versus how many times you're getting +5 energy.

You may argue that a character can just debuff the Assassin's target? If the Assassin isn't looking for anything but energy regen, it'd be a waste for the teammate to use a debuff. Hell, with team support, why even bother getting up close and personal? Why not just have a Necro Blood Rit him? And for that matter, since you can do this from range...why not just go primary Mesmer (like swordfisher's Psy.Dis build in the Mesmer sub-forum here) so you can use runes for the skill?

And how can the Assassin work from range (using Psy.Dis) if he has no energy in reserve, and very little energy coming in through regen/attacking?

NatalieD · Apr 09, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

It may astonish you to learn this, Siren, but Guardian has a 5-6 second duration and - when cast by a boon protector as it likely will be - costs 7e and blocks about 40% of attacks.

Your "high-school math" arguments apparently assume that Guardian has a 100% block rate and infinite duration, and are therefore laughable garbage.

Siren · Apr 09, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

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Originally Posted by NatalieD

It may astonish you to learn this, Siren, but Guardian has a 5-6 second duration and - when cast by a boon protector as it likely will be - costs 7e and blocks about 40% of attacks.

Your "high-school math" arguments apparently assume that Guardian has a 100% block rate and infinite duration, and are therefore laughable garbage.

Natalie, you're really stretching for rebuttals now, aren't you? I'm fully aware of the stats for Guardian. You can see my previous replies when I actually listed the stats:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren previously in the thread

A Monk casted a spammable 5E spell on his target. 5 energy. 5 second duration. 2 second recharge.

By the way, I still stand by what I'm saying, because even costing 7E means absolutely nothing.

A Monk needs to maintain Divine Boon to reach 1/10 of the energy cost of this entire build. Just think about that for a second, then try to tell me this build is energy efficient. Or that it strains Monk resources.

Guardian gives a 40-50% block rate. That's all you'd need to gimp the Psychic Assassin energy return.

The 5-6 second duration is nothing new. Guardian recharges in 2 seconds. Yes, a Monk casting Guardian, a skill whose duration is 3x as long as its recharge, is really wasting resources, especially when that Guardian can gimp or damn near shutdown the entire Psychic Assassin build. lol

And let's not forget how a Monk Support Necro can provide that Boon-Prot with something as simple as Blood Rit to effectively double the Boon-Prot's energy regen. 7E being an issue? No. And it's not some outlandish idea to have a Monk Support Necro running Blood Rit, considering that Monk Support Necro is usually specced with some WarHate anyway, which usually entails keeping tabs on his own Monk(s).

Keep trying, Natalie. Please, keep trying. I'm having a blast here. You're making it way too easy. lol

Hella Good · Apr 09, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I don't think Psychic Distraction should be used by non-Mes primaries. In fact, a Ranger with a poison prep and some spirits is the only alternative I can think of. Again, the use of Assassin interrupts while your target is under Migraine or Conundrum makes much more sense to me than using Mesmer interrupts while shutting down your attacks.

DieInBasra · Apr 10, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Alright Siren, here ya go- if you don't cast recall at the begining, you intterupt every skill you can, and the enemy is spread out beyond agrro bubbles of each other, and if you truly think a boon prot can throw around a gaurdian like it's nothing when there are other significant threats around, then yes, this build does suck. Happy?

Siren · Apr 10, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

You had a day and some odd hours to reply and all you give me is this? If you can't reply with an actual counter to my points, don't bother replying. Or reply and just concede the points. Right now you've done neither.

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Originally Posted by DieInBasra

if you don't cast recall at the begining

The build has no escape if you don't cast Recall at the beginning. Recall must be pre-cast or else you're stranded. You can't use Return, because it'll be disabled from spamming Psy.Dis, because...

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you intterupt every skill you can

...you don't spam Psy.Dis to interrupt every skill you can. You spam Psy.Dis to minimize the amount of time your other skills are disabled, because if you don't...

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and the enemy is spread out beyond agrro bubbles of each other

...your mobility and by extension, energy return, is going to be gimped even further because multiple targets very likely will not be standing right next to you, as per the typical flow of combat, which enables...

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and if you truly think a boon prot can throw around a gaurdian like it's nothing when there are other significant threats around, then yes, this build does suck. Happy?

...a Boon-Prot to easily cast Guardian on your target, especially when they've got Necro support in the forms of Blood Rit, Shadow of Fear, and similar WarHate Necro Curses.